Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Four months ago, my guest made history when he became the first Congress Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir is 30 years. But he also inherited a crown of throne. He is perhaps the only elected head of government who faces so many daunting challenges that perhaps his own life is often at stake.
Here to talk about the most serious problems that he has to contend with is the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Ghulam Nabi Azad.
Mr Azad, on the plus side, you are the first Congress CM in 30 years. On the negative side, unlike your predecessors, you can't act like a buffer between the Centre and the state. You can't ventilate the sentiment of autonomy as your predecessors did and often people look upon you as Delhi's man in Srinagar. So, do you have handicaps?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I don't know whether it is a handicap or advantage. In so far as I am concerned, I feel that this is an advantage. I have brought with me an experience of 25-26 years. I have worked with Indira Gandhi in her council of ministers, with Rajiv Gandhi as a minister, in Rao Cabinet, Dr Manmohan Singh's Cabinet. So I would like to say that in the past 26 years I have been working right from Indira Gandhi to Mrs Sonia Gandhi.
Karan Thapar: So, you are saying that unlike your predecessors, you understand Delhi a lot better than they did because you have direct experience of Delhi.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, lot many people don't know that the federal government, the heads of the government, the foreign ministry and the ministers in the Government of India are very much concerned about the welfare and well-being of the people of Jammu and Kashmir and I am lucky to have been associated with all through.
Karan Thapar: I accept that. But what about the opposite? Because you have been involved in Kashmir politics in a direct way in the sense in which Farooq Abdullah or Mufti Sayeed was involved. Perhaps no new an experience in Srinagar.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, that's what I am saying. Not many people know that even in Delhi, the PMO and other ministers have all through been involved in Kashmir affairs and there used to be a Kashmir group all through. And luckily, I have been a member of that group right from Indira Gandhi's time till date.
So, I know what is the policy of the Government of India vis-a-vis Kashmir. Lot many people in Kashmir may know what they want to do, but they don't know what Government of India wants to do.
Karan Thapar: In which case, are you telling me that you feel completely confident as Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I am sure.
Karan Thapar: You feel you know the problem? You feel you have the capacity to handle the problem?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Why not?
Karan Thapar: In this case, let's start talking about the challenges and problems that you face.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Welcome.
Karan Thapar: Let's first start on the human rights situation in your state. In February, to The Indian Express, you said proudly that one of the things that you are most happy with is that there has not been a single custodial killings since you took over. Now, I put it to you that the Public Commission on Human Rights in Kashmir -- a highly respectable body in your own state -- refutes and disagrees. They say that since November, there have been 12 custodial killings.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, this is totally, absolutely wrong. There were only two custodial deaths. And I have said that on the floor of the House. The House is in session for the past three weeks, and nobody has contested what I am saying.
Karan Thapar: But on the 11th of February, to The Indian Express you said that there were no killings at all. So these two have happened after the interview?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Definitely. These have taken place after that and only two custodial deaths have taken place so far in the past four months.
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Karan Thapar: And when the Public Commission of Human Rights says there are 12, you are saying that they are wrong?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: They are wrong. Totally wrong. Absolutely wrong.
Karan Thapar: The Greater Kashmir newspaper -- which is a highly-respected newspaper in your state -- on the 24th of February reporting a rally held by you own ally Mehbooba Mufti in Baramullah, quoted her to say that she believes that human rights violations have increased under your government compared to the record under her government.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I have said on the floor of the House that the number has gone down tremendously and drastically.
Karan Thapar: Then isn't it worrying that your own ally, the president of your ally party, should say the opposite?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: She shouldn't have said. But I have claimed on the floor of the House and that party has accepted that.
Karan Thapar: So, once again Mehbooba Mufti is wrong when she says human rights violations have increased under you?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I will say human rights violations are coming down drastically.
Karan Thapar:Perhaps the single biggest test that you face as the CM in the last four months was Handwara.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: That's right.
Karan Thapar: Omar Abdullah says that you bungled it. You first instituted a magisterial enquiry. When his party protested and boycotted the Governor's address, you changed your mind and instituted a judicial enquiry then.
Ghulam Nabi Azad:No. It was much before that we had decided. As a matter of fact, when this incident took place, I was in Delhi -- because we had gone to attend the Round Table conference and also had the meeting with the Planning Commission. So, at that point of time, when I got the full brief about Handwara, Dudipura, I already told my law minister and Deputy Chief Minister to go ahead and search for a judge -- which I again said on the floor of the House that I had already ordered a judicial enquiry.
Karan Thapar: So when your ordered a magisterial enquiry, you did so without being fully aware of the incident?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Definitely.
Karan Thapar: But shouldn't you have waited?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, no. This is always an immediate response and then by the time you get the final report then you have to respond to that.
Karan Thapar: How effective are there enquiries been. There have been frequent human rights violations, custodial killings and atrocities in Kashmir and frequently enquiries have been appointed. And once again let me quote Omar Abdullah. He says every time we hear that the Army has ordered a probe and then we see nothing of it. No one knows what has been the outcome of all these probes and enquiries. In other words, they are smoke screens to protect rather than attempting to actually find out the truth.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I am very sorry if somebody says that nothing comes out of this. I think people need to do a little research and they need to know also what is happening on the floor of the House. In this month and also in the month of December, I said more than half-a-dozen times about the outcome of these enquiries and magisterial enquiries.
I think more than a hundred people have been punished so far. Even from the paramilitary forces, many people have been imprisoned. There have been life imprisonments also. People have been dismissed also.
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Karan Thapar: Can I put it like this. That you have as the Chief Minister not only in March, but also in December clarified on the floor of the House how many people have been dismissed, how many people have been punished, how many other people have been taken action against. Then why does this impression that enquiries don't work, that they are a smoke screen continue? Because what this impression suggests is that people's trust and faith in the administration and in the government is lacking.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, there is total faith in the administration and the government. But unfortunately, in our country people would not like to listen to the positive things. Everybody is interested in negative things.
Karan Thapar: So this is simply politics?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Definitely. And I would like to say that action has been taken over a period of time. Not only during my tenure. But right from '90, when there was a governor's rule, there was Farooq Abdullah's rule and there was Mufti Sayeed's rule.
Karan Thapar: Talking about your time, you are saying to me regardless of what Mehbooba Mufti says, regardless of what Omar Abdullah says, Ghulam Nabi Azad is extremely proud of the way he has handled human rights in Kashmir?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I must say, in the last 15 years if you compare the four months, this has seen the minimum custodial deaths and minimum human rights violations in four months.
Karan Thapar: You mean that?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yes, I mean that.
Karan Thapar: This is not just boasting?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, not boasting. I am saying this on the floor of the House, straight record.
Karan Thapar: All right. Let's in that case come to the second challenge that you face -- and is one you pay a lot of stress yourself -- is the challenge of corruption. Transparency International has judged that Kashmir is perhaps the second most corrupt state in India. And PTI just last month published a survey which showed that accusations against ministers and senior bureaucrats had increased during 2005 by some 34%. The number has gone up from 719 to 954. You face a daunting challenge. Can you handle it?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I am very sorry. I am ashamed that a state which was famous for its beauty and also for unstained integrity, is today famous for militancy and corruption.
Karan Thapar: You mean that you are ashamed of the corruption?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yes, I am ashamed of corruption, that corruption has come to such a level in the state. That's why that is one of the area which I identified to fight when I took over as Chief Minister.
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Karan Thapar: I want to quote to you two of the things that you had said which struck accord with me. You said 'I have made it clear either corruption or Azad will continue, the two can't go hand in hand’.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I still mean it. I still mean it.
Karan Thapar: You also said 'I want to make it clear to everyone in the state, including my ministerial colleagues, that there will be no tolerance to corruption.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: That's right. Every single case whichever comes to my notice.
Karan Thapar: If you mean every single word of it, then explain to me how is it that two members of your government have been charged by your own state Accountability Commission of corruption? One of them has two charges against him -- and he is in fact the president of the state Congress committee. Why are they still in government?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I am happy that you have raised this question. But what proof does the Accountability Commission have? So unless the charges are proved -- I am sure the moment the charges are proved, they will not be there.
Karan Thapar: Mr Azad, have you heard of the phrase, 'Caesar's wife should be above suspicion'? What about Caesar's ministers? Can Caesar's ministers be tainted?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, let it be very clear. You know what I don't want to do what Narasimha Rao did. You had seen half of the Cabinet had gone. And ultimately they all were let go scot-free by the courts. So, I don't want the public or the Opposition to level just false accusations against my ministers and MLAs and I throw them out. I don't want to get trapped in that. So there is an Accountability Commission. Let the Accountability Commission prove it, I will throw them out.
Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, are you sure that's not an excuse? Are you sure you are not excusing and protecting the ministers? Because the difference between what happened in Narasimha's time under hawala and what's happening today when your Accountability Commission is accusing ministers in your government is clarified by one simple sentence. Let me quote to you Justice R P Sethi, the Chairman of the Accountability Commission, who said about Peerzada Mohammad Syed: "I am satisfied that if this is a scandal or a scam which I believed it is, than the minister concerned if fully involved in this transaction. Now, you may not have proof ...
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, he has to give the judgment. He has to give the final verdict, which he has not given.
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Karan Thapar: Is it acceptable a man against whom such serious things are said should continue in office?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I don't know when the proceedings are still going on whether he was supposed to say this or not. He has to give his final verdict this way or that way. And when the final verdict comes, he will not be there.
Karan Thapar: One reason why your Accountability Commission can't give the final verdict is because Peerzada Mohammad Syed will not turn up to summons, will not defend himself as required. In fact, the final order has been sent to him just last week and he still hasn't complied. So what you have got -- Peerzada Mohammad Syed refusing to turn up. You are using that as an excuse for not taking action against Peerzada Mohammad Syed and in the process people will say Mr Azad does not mean what he is saying about corruption. They all talk about corruption, but they don't act.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, one has to prove first. I don't want to make it a precedent that if there are certain charges levelled by a particular person or a political party and I go throwing them out, then other cases will come forward.
Karan Thapar: That's the only thing you are worried about? You are sure you are not protecting a colleague?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Not at all.
Karan Thapar: He is the president of your party in the state.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Let the Accountability Commission proved the charges against him, he will not be there.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that he now has two charges.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yeah. Let him prove one. Let the Accountability Commission give its decision, the final verdict, he will not be there for five minutes.
Karan Thapar: Is that a promise?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yes, that's a promise. You will hear it on television.
Karan Thapar: That's a promise to the people of India?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: That is a promise. Let him give the final verdict.
Karan Thapar: Let's them come to the third challenge you face. It's in fact the relationship with your ally, the PDP.
Now, it's no secret as you know that they were very reluctant to hand over the chief ministership to you in November. One thought that you would have used the time since then to win them over. But it seems that in fact you have allowed the differences to grow. Are you mishandling PDP?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I don't think there are any differences between PDP and myself. Let it be very clear.
Karan Thapar: Can I mention two.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yes, you can.
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Karan Thapar: First of all, I have already mentioned how Mehbooba Mufti believes that human rights violations have gown under you. You have answered that. Let me come to the second.
The PDP feels that you are deliberately contesting the forthcoming election in Pattan, Rafiabad because you wish to deny them the right of taking over two people who have moved from the National Conference to them. They say that this is bad relationship. This is bad trust.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: First of all, we have not decided so far whether we will contest or not. But at the same time, let me tell you these are the two constituencies where elections were held in 2002 and we were No. 2. So, both these seats we lost by 500 votes whereas PDP was far, far behind.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely. But in both the seats the sitting MLAs crossed over from National Conference to PDP and remember what happened in Maharashtra, when Narayan Rane and the Shiv Sainiks in Maharashtra crossed from Shiv Sena to the Congress? The NCP didn't contest the re-elections. Similarly, why don't you try that principle?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: But Kashmir is Kashmir and Maharashtra is Maharashtra. Maharashtra is not Kashmir and Kashmir is not Maharashtra.
Karan Thapar: But they are allies, without these allies you won't be in power.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, the allies should also understand the sentiments of their allies.
Karan Thapar: In other words, you are saying to them, "Don't make demands of us, we have a right to make demands of you too."
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Because we have already done that on a number of occasions.
Karan Thapar: Let me point out something to you. Even perhaps a bigger problem with the PDP is the feeling that they think you are drifting towards National Conference.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Oh, that's a total lie.
Karan Thapar: They are deeply suspicious of your friendship with the Abdullahs.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, that's a total lie. I have a different way of working. I have been in Parliamentary affairs for a period of time, four times in the last 25 years and I know how to deal with political parties. I don't believe in witch-hunt. I believe in carrying everybody along, on board. In a democracy, the government doesn't mean autocracy. So, there is a difference between autocracy and democracy. The ruling party should take care of each political party. So this is what I have been doing in Parliament also and this is what I would like to do here also.
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Karan Thapar: Quite right. But you are saying something very interesting. By implication, you are saying the PDP doesn't understand you. You are suggesting they don't understand you.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: They may not understand me. Because why I was most successful Parliamentary affairs minister over a period of 25 years because I used to carry each political party along on board.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. And you are doing the same thing here with the National Conference?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: And let me tell you Kashmir is different. While we are talking to the separatist organisations, we are telling the separatist organisation to come and contest the elections and come into the mainstream. So, you don’t want me to throw mainstream political parties out of the mainstream. I want any mainstream political party to stand.
Karan Thapar: But then, don't you understand the problem that I am talking about? You first of all accepted that the PDP may not fully understand how you function and how you think. Don't you have a need to explain to them trust is the basis of this coalition?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: But I think they understand. They totally understand my working.
Karan Thapar: I put it to you, you need to sit down with Mufti Sayeed and Mehbooba Mufti and talk to them man to man.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I would like to say that I have total understanding with Mufti Sayeed. I have total understanding with my ministers. I have total understanding with the deputy Chief Minister.
Karan Thapar: What about Mehbooba Mufti?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I don't have any problem with her.
Karan Thapar: Not total understanding though?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, I am still talking to Mufti Sayeed. That is for them to decide .
Karan Thapar: Will your relationship with the PDP last the full three years? Or is there any danger they may back out?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Definitely. From our side, we are fully cooperative.
Karan Thapar: Are you confident about their side?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I am not sure. That's for them to decide.
Karan Thapar: You are not sure? But you are saying you are sure the alliance will last three years?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Alliance will last, government will last. Alliance will last beyond three years.
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Karan Thapar: But then what's it you are not sure about?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: What they think of I am sure about it. I am in constant touch with Mufti Mohammad. We have meetings quite often and there is no mistrust whatsoever.
Karan Thapar: Mr Azad, let's talk about the attempt being made by the Centre to talk to different groups on the internal track in Kashmir. I put it to you, the recent Round Table isn't just a failure, it is a farce.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: It was first and successful.
Karan Thapar: How could you call it successful when it was boycotted by practically everybody who counts?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: That's wrong.
Karan Thapar: Even Farooq Abdullah didn't come.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Farooq Abdullah was represented by Mr Omar Abdullah.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact the he personally declined.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, these days Omar Abdullah is calling the shots in the political system of Kashmir.
Karan Thapar: Then in addition, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq didn't come, Sajjad Lone didn't come, Syed Ali Shah Geelani didn't come. Worse still, Yasin Malik publicly said that 'they are trying to make political jokers out of us'.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, let me tell you. I have said there also and I have said on the floor of the House that there should not be any misunderstanding on anybody's part within the state and outside the state. The ones who attended are duly elected representatives of the people of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that you don't have any problem with them. The people you have a problem with, who you need to talk to weren't there.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yes.
Karan Thapar: So what's the point in talking to your friends?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: But how many people do they represent? So, I totally agree. I said I am for talks. I am for peaceful solutions, I am for durable solution. I want that all these separatist leaders should be on board while we are trying to solve the Kashmir problem.
But there should not be any illusion that they are the only one. Eighty per cent of the leaders -- be that National Conference, be that Congress, Be that Panther Party, PDP -- they are all duly elected representatives of the people of Jammu and Kashmir.
Karan Thapar: Chief minister, let's not get into the trap of deciding who is 20% and who is 80%. The point is people with whom you have a problem are the separatists. The separatists boycott it. The sad point is, in fact, the Prime Minister did open a dialogue with Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in September. It made a very good start. Six months have passed and absolutely nothing has happened. So is the government serious about talking to Hurriyat? Or is it just a PR exercise?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, let me tell you the government is very serious. Nobody should doubt the seriousness on the part of the Government of India.
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Karan Thapar: Can I tell you why I think that the government isn't serious. Because in September when the first round was over, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said to the press that the PM told him that the second round would be held in October. In December, on the 14th, you as CM told The Hindu in an interview that the PM had told you that the second round would happen very soon. Three months have passed since then.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, let me tell you. The PM told me when the Hurriyat had met him, they told him ‘when we are ready with the proposals, we will inform you and we will come back’. So the PM told me that they were supposed to come with the proposal and they did not approach him.
Karan Thapar: If it is simply a problem of communication what stops the PM from picking up the phone and saying to the Hurriyat, 'come and talk'?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, I think they were busy more in talking to Gen Musharraf and all the time they are spending there.
Karan Thapar: I want to put something to you. Is the PM or the PMO standing on the false pride? Are they wanting the Hurriyat to come and say 'knock, knock, we want to come and talk to you'?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No. You are talking about a particular meeting that the PM didn't call them to. That time the decision was once the Hurriyat was ready with their agenda, with their proposal, they will inform the PMO.
Karan Thapar: But the Hurriyat has been telling the press practically every day since October that they are willing to be called, but they haven’t been.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, that's not true.
Karan Thapar: The PM got in touch with them to call them to a Round Table, which they boycotted. Why couldn't the PM get in touch and say ‘six months have passed since we have out last one on one, let's come and have another one’?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Some initiatives had been taken in the beginning. In between, the PM has met the other groups also. Maybe some Hurriyat leaders wanted to be called them only and not the others. But out interest is in each individual and in each group.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Are you serious about talking to Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and the Hurriyat?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Very serious.
Karan Thapar: This is not a PR exercise?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, not at all.
Karan Thapar: It's not a camouflage?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No. It's not a camouflage.
Karan Thapar: Then can I suggest something? Since that is considered to be the most promising track, why don't you speak to the PM and say to him let's get in touch with them. Let's not waste time. Six months have gone by.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Let me tell you, I was the second speaker at the Round Table conference and the PM spoke first. The first thing I said while the elected representatives are here from all the three regions, there are social organisations and there are other leaders. But there is a group which represents the voice of dissent. So if we have to find a durable solution, the voice of dissent has to be approached.
And it was my request that we must have a Round Table with the voice of dissent. So I was first to suggest to the honourable PM that we should have another Round Table conference and it was something that he accepted and immediately in his concluding speech in the evening, he did not only announce a second Round Table conference, but also announced the timing and the venue.
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Karan Thapar: Quite right. And there is absolutely no guarantee that any of the people who boycotted the first will attend the second. So what's the point of the second?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: But then who will be responsible for that?
Karan Thapar: The government, surely.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Why?
Karan Thapar: Because it's the government who needs to reach out.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: That's the most unfortunate part in our politics that people go in and out to other parts of the world, other parts of the globe and meet different leader. And when they are invited by their own PM, if they don't go, they are not being held responsible and the government is being held responsible.
Karan Thapar: All right. That's clearly your opinion on the Hurriyat. Let's leave it there. In the meantime, Gen Musharraf has also come forward with his ideas for a solution. He is talking about self-governance, he is talking about joint management. State ministers have welcomes the ideas in private. Leaders of the Opposition have welcomes it in public. Your allies have welcomes it in public. You dismissed it out of hand. Why?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: If you remember, again unfortunately nobody goes through the proceedings of the Assembly and statements made in Jammu and Kashmir. In the past five months I have spoken more than half-a-dozen times in the Assembly, congratulating Gen Musharraf that ultimately he has realised the ground situation in Kashmir and he has given up on a number of things and he is ready for talks.
Karan Thapar: This is very interesting. So now you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that you believed that there is a possibility of solution in the thought of self-governance, in the thought of joint management. Is that what you are saying?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I have my own perception. Different people in Kashmir have different perception.
Karan Thapar: But you are welcoming the proposal?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Yeah, we are welcoming. But we are saying we have our own Constitution, we have our own flag. Nobody can buy land, can buy property who don't belong in here.
Karan Thapar: But now today as CM, you are welcoming the proposal?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: I am welcoming the suggestion made by the President of Pakistan to have a dialogue with India. I am welcoming the decision and announcements made by the Pakistan President that there is no scope for azadi in Jammu and Kashmir.
Karan Thapar: This is very different to what you said in January when the General first enunciated his ideas.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, he was talking about demilitarisation. I still contest the idea of demilitarisation.
Karan Thapar: You also quarrelled about the idea of self-governance. After all you said who have elected me to stop the people of Tamil Nadu. Now, you are more welcoming.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, there are two different issues. What Pakistan President had been talking about? He had been talking about demilitarisation. So, I was saying when Gen Musharraf is talking about demilitarisation in Kashmir, he should also talk about demilitarisation in Gilgit and in Baltistan and PoK also.
Karan Thapar: But what about self-governance? Those are ideas you welcome?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: No, the question is what type of? That's why we want to have a Round Table.
Karan Thapar: So, on those ideas you are willing to consider a dialogue? You are willing to consider talking?
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Well, we have already discussed in the Round Table. We have given the option to everybody to put forth his or her views.
Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, we have not got time unfortunately to take this further. But to many people it will seem there has been an important shift in your position in regard to Gen Musharraf, one I should tell you many people will welcome.
A pleasure talking to you on Devil's Advocate.
Ghulam Nabi Azad: Thank you very much.
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